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 - 28 Oct 2014


Attendees, you will be considered present in this virtual meeting if you enter your vote in the table below. If you have no opinion on the change, enter "present" or "here".


The SAT met on 2014-10-21 and decided to recommend the following proposal:

  1. DM-9 - Getting issue details... STATUS  - "Open up LSST software mailing lists"

SAT Proposal

The proposal for the suite of public lists would be:

  • a mailing list for public (e.g., release) announcements
  • the list for users of DM software (it was felt that eschewing a mailing list for SO or CQ may be too radical)
  • general development-related discussions (there will always be a need to reach all developers; e.g., the recent discussions on github-JIRA integration/notifications would go here)

An alternative prefix may be 'dm-', if there's pushback that 'data-' is too broad. Another option (that just occurred to me and isn't necessarily supported by either Frossie or Josh) is 'code-'. All these lists would be public, archived, and open to anyone to subscribe.

In addition to these, we would let any of the working groups (or subgroups) open mailing lists as necessary. So, for example, we could have (for apps), or even (if algo-devel becomes unwieldy and needs further splitting), etc. We'll rely on common sense to not let the number of lists grow to >= number of people in DM. These lists could be private, if necessary, but the default should be to make them public.

Finally there'd be a (private), for broadcasts to DM staff only.

Transition plan:

We'd ask Iain to create these lists.

Once they are created, the proposal is to retire and archive lsst-data and lsst-dm-stack-users lists after some grace period (~1 week).

The subscribers to lsst-data would be alerted to re-subscribe to either the -announce, -users, or -devel lists. The subscribers to lsst-dm-stack-users will be alerted to the name change, re-subscribed to data-users (or, if Mailman allows for that, lsst-dm-stack-users would just be renamed to data-users), and an alias will be set up to forward e-mails from lsst-dm-stack-users to data-users.

SAT Recommendation

The SAT recommended at its meeting on 2014-09-21 that Mario's proposal for data-announce, data-users, and data-devel be adopted. In addition, the SAT recommends that smaller groups be encouraged to set up their own mailing lists, ideally via self-service at


The TCT will now:

  • first, review and comment on these proposed changes based on their impacts upon cost and and schedule; and
  • secondly, present our findings to the DM Project Manager and the DM Project Scientist  who  consider them when determining their mandate on these three changes.


Robyn's opinion on the impact upon cost and schedule of accepting each of these changes to the mail lists is that there would be minimal impact.  

Discussion items

Robyn Allsman Yes.
Jacek Becla  
David Ciardi

In principle, I have no objection, but I am worried a bit about the sheer number of emails and different addresses.


Gregory Dubois-


Frossie EconomouDon't care what we call it as long as I can email "my" developers, to which I offer such unstinting support.Yes
Kian-Tat Limdm- is not ideal, but it is short and descriptive, and I like it better than data-.Yes
Donald Petravick  
Ron Lambert  
Robert LuptonI prefer the dm- prefix (we're not discussing data). I don't see the problem with having more lists (more emails, yes!)Yes
Simon Krughoff+1 for the dm- prefix.Yes
Xiuqin WuI prefer dm- prefix too.Yes
Tally of votes:Quorum is 6 members present. 7 voted affirmatively for the naming change; 4 no-shows.  A preference for the 'dm-' prefix over the  'data-' prefix. 

Action items

  • At the end of voting, Robyn Allsman will notify Jeff Kantor and Mario Juric of the TCT vote.  The TCT requests that Jeff and/or Mario advise the TCT as to the final disposition of this issue so that the Standards documents can be modified if, and as, appropriate.


  1. Unknown User (robyn)

    K-T: I looked over the titles and content summaries of the LDM documents on Docushare and found none that were relevant to this topic.  I also scanned the same information in the other groups'  Docushare controlled documents  - reading through the 4 that seemed potentially relevant but which turned  out not to cover this topic. I asked Iain if he knew of a Project policy with respect to the creation of listservs and he did not know of an explicit policy. Finally, because the TCT decisions have mostly been maintained on the wikis, I checked them for relevant policy statements - there is no official DM policy statement on naming or access restriction to the list-servs.  

  2. Unknown User (robyn)

    This on-line TCT meeting is now closed.  The vote to rename the DM mailing lists was accepted by 7 out of 7 participating members. There were four no-shows.  There was a definite preference to use 'dm-' rather than 'data-' in the actual names; 4 out of 7 explicitly requested this prefix change.

    The results of this vote will be sent to the DM PM and the DM PS.

  3. Unknown User (robyn)

    Jeff replied via email on 28 Oct 2014:

    "Since it is Mario’s proposal I presume he votes yes, and I defer to his judgement."


    So this proposal has been accepted by DM management.